Clint Van Zandt - former FBI Criminal Profiler, Hostage Negotiator, and current TV and News Media Crime Analyst

{"contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}

The Smiley Face Killers

Smiley Face Killer symbol

As worn by the character "The Comedian" in "The Watchmen"

Murder locations attributed to "The Smiley Face Killers"

For the past dozen years, a cult, syndicate or gang of serial killers has criss-crossed America, traveling to college campuses in 25 different cities in a dozen different states in an ever increasing murder spree. Their targets were 19-23 year-old attractive, intelligent, mainly white (93%) men. They've carry out their crimes by slipping their unsuspecting victims GHB (a date rape drug) and then kidnap them. Some of the victims were allegedly held for an unknown period of time, possibly tortured, and then disposed of in a local body of water, thereby depriving investigators of valuable physical evidence of the crime. All the killers leave behind is their group signature, a "Smiley Face" caricature. They were dubbed the "Smiley Face Killers" because Canadian born American serial killer Keith Hunter Jesperson, who murdered eight people across six states between 1990-1995, had already taken on the moniker of the "Happy Face Killer," this as he drew "happy faces" on the letters he wrote to the media.

Local, state and federal investigators have been completely ignorant of this multi-celled gang and go so far as to deny its very existence, while these sadistic, psychopathic murderers continue to target, stalk and kill their prey. We wouldn't even be aware that this underground group of serial killers existed were it not for two diligent former detectives. These men have single-handedly waged an investigative war against this group of killers, whilst the ignorant naysayers refuse to help them. All the Feds and other lazy cops do is frustrate the efforts of these two heroic individuals who refer to the alleged murders as "perfect crimes."

To all of the above I say "No, I don't think so."

The "Smiley Face Killers" is the theory that two former NYPD detectives, the forlorn parents of some of the victims who are looking for answers, and one or two histrionic media types have come forward to put spin on a number of tragic deaths among a given population group, this while writing a book or two concerning their otherwise empty theories. True, no one can question or even understand a parent's grief for a child's death and the hopefully altruistic motive of the two former cops; still we're left to either believe or not believe in the existence of this silent gang of killers. This is purportedly a secret society that has been knit together for over a decade and yet has left absolutely no indication of any meetings or evidence of their communications. They have also succeeded in hiding their method of identifying their targeted victims and how they coordinated their kidnappings and murders, all the while leaving no linking physical evidence at any believed crime scene. What's more, they have prevented law enforcement agencies from connecting any of these 40-100 homicides to this secret, sophisticated, and sadistic murder club.

The Victims

Patrick McNeill, Jr., was only 21 when he walked out of the Dapper Dog, an Upper East Side bar in New York City on a cold February night in 1997. His friends said he was "slightly drunk" when he told them he was taking the subway back to Fordham University. When his body was found floating near a Brooklyn pier almost two months later, the presence of alcohol (0.16 blood/alcohol) still lingered in his system, but the Medical Examiner (ME) stated he was not overly inebriated when he died of drowning. As there was no indication of foul play, his death was ruled an accident, a ruling McNeill's parents and the two former detectives dispute to this day. Twenty-four-year-old Matthew Kruziki was last seen alive on Christmas Eve, 2005. He had a dispute over a bar bill and left without his coat and wallet. His body was found almost three months later in the Mississippi River near his hotel. His death was also ruled a drowning. Michael Knoll had just left his 22nd birthday party at a bar in Eau Claire, Wisconsin when he was last seen in November of 2002. He was found in a nearby lake four months later. His death, like most of the other dozens of associated victims in this matter, was also ruled an accidental drowning, because, like McNeill and Kruziki and the other victims, there was no evidence of injury to his body.

Many hundreds of drownings and/or missing person cases have occurred around New York and across the mid west during the past 12 years. Those missing and dead that are believed by the two former investigators to be associated with this matter have been linked because they met the same victim profile, this while most of their deaths are believed by authorities to have alcohol consumption/abuse as a contributing factor to their death.

While I have reviewed many of the cases allegedly linked to the "Smiley Face Killers," I too, like most investigators, have not seen any evidence that would suggest that all of these young men were the victim of murder, much less murder by a gang of demented serial killers who signed their crimes with a "Smiley Face."

The 'Evil' Smiley Face

In 2002, University of Wisconsin student Lucas Helder was 21 when he drove 3,200 miles across Nebraska, Colorado, Texas, Illinois and Iowa, leaving 18 pipe bombs in mailboxes as he drove. His master plan was to create a gigantic "Smiley Face" on the map of the United States when the locations of his bombs, like dots on a map, were connected. At the time of his arrest he said he was protesting government control over the daily lives of people.

The "Happy or Smiley Face" symbol has been around since 1963. Its first use is attributed to Harvey Ball, a commercial artist in Worcester, Massachusetts. It's been abundantly used in pop culture since. A few examples include the film "Forest Gump" and more recently as the signature of the anti-hero "The Comedian" in the film "Watchmen." It is almost as common as the Coca-Cola symbol, especially around a college campus.

While at least 12 of the 40+ victims allegedly have a "Smiley Face" or other similar symbol allegedly related to their deaths or to their body disposal sites, the two former cops who've linked these deaths had to estimate or guess at the location where many of the victims were believed to have entered the water, perhaps somewhere along miles of shoreline. It was in many of these "guesstimated" locations that some kind of believed related symbol was found. Some of the symbols are known to have been at their location prior to the victim's death, while one or more may have been placed in its location after the fact by persons unknown. In reality there is really no way to know for sure if these symbols are even related to the death of the associated victims.

The symbols found to date have not been consistent in style, size, or coloration, and there was no indication of such a symbol at sites related to the majority of the victim's identified by the two former investigators. If there was such a secret gang, one might think they would at least be able to agree on the details or design of their murderous signature sign, this since they were apparently able to agree on other elements of their nationwide conspiracy of murder madness.

College Age Drownings

What is consistent in this case is that it involves young college-aged men who may have drunk too much and who somehow wound up drowning in a local river, lake or pond. Over 4,000 people drown in the U.S. every year, an average of 11 per day, this as the result of an accident, suicide, or for some other unknown reason. For every fatal drowning there are upwards of four nonfatal submersions related to swimming, boating, playing or working in and around bodies of water. Males are four times more likely to drown than females, and in the critical age group of 15-24, almost 700 drowning accidents were reported in a recent year. Alcohol abuse is related to 80% of these drowning deaths.

The former investigators have alleged that some of the associated victims were missing their religions metals and crosses, suggesting that their hypothetical killer(s) may have taken the religious symbol as a souvenir or "trophy" of their death, a characteristic sometimes associated with serial killers. But not all of the related victims were wearing such symbols and in the case of most, they were not missing anything that was considered a potential "souvenir."

Tragic Deaths, but No Evidence of a Gang of Serial Killers

There is really nothing more tragic for a parent than the loss of their son or daughter, no matter the age of the child or the circumstance of the death. Some parents, in their overwhelming grief, may want to believe that their child's death was the result of a terrible crime: In this case, perhaps the result of a national conspiracy vs. an accident due to intoxication or, perhaps, the result of suicide.

Drowning is the fifth most likely cause of death for all Americans, and this is even higher for younger people. The blood/alcohol level in many of the suspected victims was high, suggesting to police investigators that many were at some level of intoxication prior to their death. Others had been observed drinking to excess at parties and college bars before they disappeared and/or died.

Police and the FBI say:

The Deputy Commissioner of the NYPD has stated that the death of Patrick McNeill, Jr., was the result of an accidental drowning, and there is no evidence, contrary to statements attributed to the two former detectives, of a "blow torch" or a ligature being used on the victim's body. A well-known forensic pathologist, however, has reviewed the reports on Patrick McNeill's death and found evidence of fly larva eggs in the victim's groin area. This could, of course, suggest McNeill had died, and perhaps was the victim of homicide on land, with his body placed in the water sometime post mortem. No local police department, however, involved in investigating these associated deaths has suggested that they were part of any national conspiracy, and in fact, most believe the deaths were either accidental or suicidal. The FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit and VICAP have both looked at the indicated deaths all across the country and have stated their belief that the deaths, while tragic, were not related, and were not part of any type of secret national serial killer group. The Bureau investigators, like their police counterparts, all tend to believe the majority of these deaths were again either accidents or suicides.

There is a statistical possibility, perhaps a probability that at least one or more of the 40 – 100 deaths related to this matter could be a cleverly disguised murder, or, perhaps, the local investigators and the medical examiner could have just missed the subtle or hidden signs of a homicide. Remember, some bodies had been in the water a lengthy period of time. There is not, however, anything to connect the dozens of suspect deaths other than the method of death (drowning) and the demographics that the two former detectives say link the victims. In reality the demographics concerning the suspected victims are, in fact, much broader than have been reported, thereby representing a much larger cross section of college aged men. In the case of one geographic area that suffered an unusually large number of drownings represented in this study, police and the FBI note that other demographically similar men had survived falls into local bodies of water and none were the result of them having contact with a potential assailant. When patrols were increased after one death, patrol members found numerous intoxicated college age men alongside the edge of the water, obviously increasing the likelihood of an accidental drowning in that area.

All in all, the two former investigators have not presented any creditable evidence to prove these questioned deaths were all the result of homicide, or that they were linked as part of the actions of a secret crime syndicate of gang of serial killers. Meanwhile most, if not all of the evidence developed by investigating police agencies appears to contradict the assertions made by the former police officers.

For my Part:

I spoke to investigators in Indiana last week concerning the alleged deaths in that state that have been associated with this case by the former NYPD investigators. They don't believe that these tragic losses were the result of a gang of homicidal killers, but again suggest that the victims died due to other non-murder related causes such as accidental drowning.

I was once asked to review these cases by a reporter working with the former detectives and I reluctantly agreed to do so, this while expressing serious doubt in their theory of a secret serial killer gang that preyed on intoxicated college men. I did indicate that I would be open to any solid evidence they had to support their theory. They never contacted me again.

The reality is that some of these deaths are challenging and do need to be reviewed. Were some to be homicides, such could be the work of multiple killers, some of which could even be copy cats, using the guise of the "Smiley Face Killer" to murder and allow their crime to be blamed of the invisible gang of sociopathic killers.

I believe that most of these are tragic losses are linked only by the coincidence of the drowning of intoxicated young college-aged men. I think these deaths were the result of accidents in most cases, although suicide and even undiscovered homicides could, statistically speaking, be evident in one or more of these deaths. But were there to be undiscovered or hidden homicides in the 40 – 100 suspected cases, there is still no apparent connection between any believed homicide victim and the other suspected cases. With 16,500 homicides in the U.S. and almost 1,000,000 missing persons each year, murder as a cause of death should always be considered in the drowning of a young person. Police have considered and rejected homicide as a cause of death in all of these cases to date, although a jail house snitch has caused police to reopen one accidental death case.

I believe these two former investigators have invested so much of themselves into this case, and into the families of those who died ("I got emotionally involved with the families," said one investigator), as well as into their own personal theory of a secret, 12-year-old national conspiracy between killers across the country, that they have lost their objectivity and look only for what could link these tragic deaths as opposed to what clearly separates them from serial homicide cases. What they have is an abundance of unbridled emotion and unproven theories that fail to prove homicide, and fail to provide any evidence of the far reaching murder conspiracy they have put forth.

Questions that need answered…

Unanswered questions abound, include how such a killer group got together in the first place; how they choose their victims, to include gaining access to a potential victim's GPA; how they, as a group, communicate between members and otherwise coordinate their crimes; why the same exact symbol was not found at every location and why it is not left at the same basic location; how the ME's from all the states involved have all missed evidence of drugging such as GHB; and, after 12 years and upwards of 100 murders, how the gang is able to keep their secret, secret? Wouldn't at least one loose-lipped member have told someone who would have sold the story to some tabloid for $100,000, or wouldn't one of the fringe sociopaths have confessed or offered up the gang so he could escape jail on another charge?

Finally how many college aged men "accidently" drown in the period 1987 - 1999? I'm led to believe that such losses are similar in number to the numbers quoted by the two former investigators for the period represented by their current investigation. Should this be the case, it would suggest either a 24-year history for the mysterious gang of serial killers or deaths, though tragic, that are numerically consistent with the historical mix of college age men, alcohol abuse, and accidents involving bodies of water.

Americans love conspiracies, like in the bloody movie "Hostel" where college-aged victims are murdered by a group of sadistic killers in eastern Europe. While such is the fodder of horror films, it is rarely reality and in this case "bogey men" appear to have been invented that simply do not exist.

The fact is there are no easy answers here, but the pain felt by so many victim family members is, unlike the "Smiley Face Killer" conspiracy theory, totally real.

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{"commentId":6098728,"authorDomain":"somedayhomefree"}

These stories have intrigued me for some time. I am most familiar with the cases of Brian Welzien and Glenn Leadley. In the case of Brain W. his blood-alcohol was 0.08 percent with no identified drugs found in his system. You have to admit it is a very odd coincidence that he was last seen at the Ambassador East which is approximately 3-4 blocks (about a 10 minute walk if you are fast) from Lake Michigan and would require him crossing Lake Shore Drive through pedestrian crossing and somehow be stupid enough to attempt to swim or presumably fall into the lake in the middle of winter. Keep in mind that winter in Chicago is especially bitterly cold and windy during this time. His presumable point of entrance to Lake Michigan would have been at Oak Street beach, this is shallow water that gets progressively deeper. There is no way to "fall in" and find yourself in too deep of water to handle. All the while knowing that the friend who dropped him off was only parking the car to return to meet him. I am hardly a fan of conspiracies of any kind, but this story defies logic and seems to lack any reasonable explanation.

{"commentId":6098728,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"somedayhomefree"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:28 AM EDT
{"commentId":6309722,"authorDomain":"wbernstein"}

The Winnipeg based demon society of aryan led satanists talks on cell phones, work at jobs, and drown college students on weekends.

If you click the link you'll see over 5 access portals with thousands of posts from fewer than hundreds of members all on the subject of being vampires or being demonic.

Strange? Anti-typical? What is truely strange is the police's refusual to investigate or view facts or to view evidence.

Smile!!!

The Smiley Face Killers have even began communicating to the public in a message posted by someone sounding crazy. Quote "NOW SEE HERE!

I GET!

I GET!

GET! (Smiley face smiley face smiley face)

This is not funny.

{"commentId":6309722,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"wbernstein"}
  • 1 vote
#1.1 - Fri Apr 3, 2009 11:24 PM EDT
{"commentId":6309758,"authorDomain":"wbernstein"}

Realm of corruption.

netherworld

blood city

These satan worshippers stick to character and have over thousands of posts by what appears to be the same 5 or 10 members.

{"commentId":6309758,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"wbernstein"}
  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Fri Apr 3, 2009 11:28 PM EDT
{"commentId":6309822,"authorDomain":"wbernstein"}

The website is fully loaded with satanic idolty at Realm Of Corruption / Blood City. The 10 members have posted over thousands of satanic games to play in and vamoose whenever a murder occurs. It is insane Look up Smiley Face Gang all info

"NOW SEE HERE!

I GET!...

I GET!...

I GET!...

I GET!...

(Smileyface smiley face smiley face)"

And if you do not play by their rules. The suffocate victims by force feed date rape drugs.

There is no fakeness to this real report. The FBI should serioussly group and investigate cooperative work completly.

{"commentId":6309822,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"wbernstein"}
    #1.3 - Fri Apr 3, 2009 11:36 PM EDT
    {"commentId":6450183,"authorDomain":"jackscharber"}

    Why would Aryan's kill fellow white males? And what is the web site you are talking about?

    {"commentId":6450183,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"jackscharber"}
      #1.4 - Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:48 PM EDT
      {"commentId":6543775,"authorDomain":"alkimija"}

      Winnipeg? Somehow I doubt Winnipeg is a hotbed of activity that is responsible for alleged murders (most likely bizarre accidents or suicides) in the USA.

      Seriously, I thought I'd seen it all, but the demonic Winnipeg thing just made me laugh out loud.

      {"commentId":6543775,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"alkimija"}
      • 3 votes
      #1.5 - Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:37 PM EDT
      Reply
      {"commentId":6115371,"authorDomain":"roover685"}

      I had heard of this theory last year, and also remember the young man who drowned in Lake Michigan -- his disappearance was very high profile here because he seemed to have just vanished.

      You make some good points -- I need to re-read this again. I appreciate you bringing this up on your site.

      {"commentId":6115371,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"roover685"}
        Reply#2 - Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 PM EDT
        {"commentId":6119951,"authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}

        Cat,

        I've gone into the history of this whole thing and while a few could, just could be individual murders, there does not appear to be a solid connection between the deaths that suggests a secret ring tat murdered 40+ people.

        Best,

        CVZ

        {"commentId":6119951,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}
        • 1 vote
        Reply#3 - Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:56 AM EDT
        Reply
        {"commentId":6160303,"authorDomain":"roover685"}

        Well, I guess that is comforting and I'm glad you looked into it!

        {"commentId":6160303,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"roover685"}
          Reply#4 - Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:40 PM EDT
          {"commentId":6160852,"authorDomain":"featurewriter"}

          I am puzzled about the two Midwestern college men who vanished when last seen 30 feet from the front door of their dorm. I do not recall the names, but they never were found, as far as I know. Please let me know if you (Mr. VanZant) are aware of these cases.

          {"commentId":6160852,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"featurewriter"}
          • 1 vote
          Reply#5 - Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:32 PM EDT
          {"commentId":6177663,"authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}

          Sheila,

          Not off the top of my head, but with almost 1,000,000 people reported missing every year, they could be part of the still missing... If you find their names, let me know.

          Best,

          CVZ

          {"commentId":6177663,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}
            #5.1 - Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:41 PM EDT
            Reply
            {"commentId":6386212,"authorDomain":"first-church-of-bush"}

            First we shall examine the clues. Victims are 19-23 good looking males who are slipped a mickey and vanish in thin air. Who would be looking for, able to slip a mickey undetected, and cause a young man to vanish in thin air? Obviously a woman or women. Who could torture a man to death without leaving obvious marks and know the perfect way to dispose of the body? A dominatrix. So who is doing these crimes? Elementary, a network of dominatrixes.

            {"commentId":6386212,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"first-church-of-bush"}
              Reply#6 - Wed Apr 8, 2009 8:26 PM EDT
              {"commentId":6409296,"authorDomain":"forager"}
              {"commentId":6409296,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"forager"}
              • 1 vote
              Reply#7 - Thu Apr 9, 2009 11:35 PM EDT
              {"commentId":6450091,"authorDomain":"jackscharber"}

              Another young college student, 18 year old Dan Zamlen of St. Thomas University, goes missing nearby the Missisippi River on the morning of Sunday April 5th around 3am. I believe that he is another victim. He was last heard from on a cell phone talking to his friends and then nothing. Gone. Gotta follow this story.

              {"commentId":6450091,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"jackscharber"}
                Reply#8 - Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:39 PM EDT
                {"commentId":6528561,"authorDomain":"whyfactor"}

                My family has had the Irish curse of alcoholism, for many generations. I have a great grandfather that, drowned in the river, on his way home from a tavern. Since his fly was unbuttoned (they used buttons in those days instead of zippers) it was deemed an accidental drowning. No mention of this was public, the local paper only said he drowned. It is only through family lore, that we know he just stopped to take a whiz and passed out, over and on to his maker. Could any of these drownings be attributed to the same circumstances?

                Also, living by the big Ohio River all my life, it is unfortunate, but most bodies are quickly and severely damaged by the water ,the turtles, giant pike fish, and other aquatic animals. Unless a knife or a bullet would be lodged in the bone, if still with the body, it would be nearly impossible to tell if drugs, strangulation contributed to the death of the unfortunate victim. Within a couple of days, especially in the summer months, you could probably not even find gross evidence of foul play, let alone trace evidence.

                {"commentId":6528561,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"whyfactor"}
                • 2 votes
                Reply#9 - Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:45 PM EDT
                {"commentId":6531306,"authorDomain":"inghar2004"}

                Thanks for this report. Conspiracies are alway intriguing, so coincidences often get formed into patterns that may or may not represent something factual. While I wouldn't be surprised if something like that was going on (there are just too many psychopaths out there), hopefully your assessment reflects reality.

                {"commentId":6531306,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
                • 1 vote
                Reply#10 - Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:51 PM EDT
                {"commentId":6826635,"authorDomain":"cka-jfs"}

                Now there is even a book about the Smiley Face Killers.

                I also hear there is a movie. =\ I wonder if this is going to be another JFK or UFO thing 4 years 2 come.

                {"commentId":6826635,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"cka-jfs"}
                  Reply#11 - Fri May 1, 2009 5:17 AM EDT
                  {"commentId":6888035,"authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}

                  Chris,

                  People choose to believe what they want to believe, no matter the evidence to the contrary.

                  Best,

                  CVZ

                  {"commentId":6888035,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}
                    #11.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 7:43 AM EDT
                    Reply
                    {"commentId":6864677,"authorDomain":"ragingranter"}

                    I've read a lot about serial killers, and I just don't see the connections between these murders that Duarte & Gannon (among others) claim exist. Even the smiley faced symbol is suspect. I read on CNN that simley face graffiti was found in only 8 of the 40 locations where these drownings occurred. Since the smiley face is such a ubiquitous symbol, finding the symbol in 20% of the locations seems hardly significant at all.

                    The cluster of drownings in the city of LaCrosse, WI does seem somewhat suspicious however. There have been something like 7 or more drownings along the waterfront there in the past dozen years or so. Having so many drownings in the same location does seem worthy of further investigation. There are plenty of popular drinking spots all over the continent frequented by college students, many near water, and they don't get that many drownings. Other than LaCrosse, I don't see much reason to suspect anything other than drunkeness.

                    Oh, and the guy suggesting a demonic Aryan death cult from Winnipeg is responsible is clearly out of his mind.

                    {"commentId":6864677,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"ragingranter"}
                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#12 - Sun May 3, 2009 5:29 PM EDT
                    {"commentId":6888044,"authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}

                    Got to go with you on this one.

                    CVZ

                    {"commentId":6888044,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}
                      #12.1 - Tue May 5, 2009 7:44 AM EDT
                      Reply
                      {"commentId":6866117,"authorDomain":"cka-jfs"}

                      LOL death cult - that's priceless. I ordered the book from Amazon and it shows a connection between islamic terrorist cells. kinda scary.

                      {"commentId":6866117,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"cka-jfs"}
                        Reply#13 - Sun May 3, 2009 7:44 PM EDT
                        {"commentId":6908596,"authorDomain":"cka-jfs"}

                        According to the Winona Daily News it got debunked. LOL We're safe...no cults. =)

                        {"commentId":6908596,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"cka-jfs"}
                          Reply#14 - Wed May 6, 2009 10:13 AM EDT
                          {"commentId":7041457,"authorDomain":"holm0377"}

                          I spent some time a few weeks past posting to the site of the reporter who "cracked" the story (sfkillers.com). Long story short: My suspicion that an out-of-work reporter was more concerned with obtaining a book deal than with the veracity of her story was hailed as the most ridiculous statement on the site (more so than the Rubik's cube / Lacrosse connection, or the satanic bikers), so I moved on. I mean, fly larvae: can't argue with that, right?

                          Ugh.

                          {"commentId":7041457,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"holm0377"}
                            Reply#15 - Tue May 12, 2009 7:58 PM EDT
                            {"commentId":7124258,"authorDomain":"englishteacher7kr"}

                            Josh Snell called from his cell phone saying he was being chased and feared for his life.

                            {"commentId":7124258,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"englishteacher7kr"}
                              Reply#16 - Sat May 16, 2009 8:28 PM EDT
                              {"commentId":7127341,"authorDomain":"kerrie-gamble"}

                              Josh Snell went to Immanuel Lutheran High School in Eau Claire, WI. We all knew him. We all believe he was murdered by someone he did not know. There is something to this young man's death.

                              40 murders? I don't know, but it would be so much easier to believe it was all just a tragic accident. But we all know about the phone call he made that night, and there is just no explanation.

                              {"commentId":7127341,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"kerrie-gamble"}
                                Reply#17 - Sun May 17, 2009 1:49 AM EDT
                                {"commentId":7132980,"authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}

                                Jack and Kerrie,

                                As indicated in the article, I believe that some of the deaths could be individual homicides, perhaps to include that of your friend, and as such should be individually investigated. It is the idea of a gang of serial killers that I do not see the evidence to support.

                                I'm sorry for the tragic death of your friend.

                                CVZ

                                {"commentId":7132980,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}
                                  #17.1 - Sun May 17, 2009 3:26 PM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  {"commentId":7160336,"authorDomain":"cka-jfs"}

                                  There may have been one or two homicides but this whole thing is a joke. The support groups for these crack pots are now trying to smear everyone who speaks out agansit the including the FBI, police and the person that wrote the book. What is sad is these are the same followers who probably believe in Big Foot or UFO's. So look out...since you don't buy into their dilusions you're probably next. =\

                                  {"commentId":7160336,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"cka-jfs"}
                                    Reply#18 - Tue May 19, 2009 11:01 AM EDT
                                    {"commentId":7501462,"authorDomain":"epitts"}

                                    The FBI did very little investigating.They dismiss them as being the work of a serial killer because there is no hard evidence.They don't look for the evidence in the first place.I don't know about the guy that wrote the book but he nevertalked with me and I took pics of some of the graffiti,so already I don't take him seriously.A profiler also dismmissed the serial killer theory pointing out that smiley faces are common,yet there were several symbols left and many of the smiley faces have horns.There is a long string of coincidences so making a point about one individual thing to dismiss the whole serial killer theory is ridiculous.You don't know what you are talking abpout.

                                    {"commentId":7501462,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"epitts"}
                                      #18.1 - Sat Jun 6, 2009 8:54 PM EDT
                                      {"commentId":7501527,"authorDomain":"epitts"}

                                      and did you ever think some of us might be sick of addressing the kind of propaganda you wrote?You say there was a couple homicides as if you knoiw something for a factYou are just another arrogant attention whore like the rest of the debunkers

                                      {"commentId":7501527,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"epitts"}
                                        #18.2 - Sat Jun 6, 2009 9:00 PM EDT
                                        Reply
                                        {"commentId":7478084,"authorDomain":"longsnapper52"}

                                        How do you explain the Sinsinawa clue left near one of the drownings?

                                        {"commentId":7478084,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"longsnapper52"}
                                          Reply#19 - Fri Jun 5, 2009 8:56 AM EDT
                                          {"commentId":8785803,"authorDomain":"Richie-1271209"}
                                          Richie-1271209Deleted
                                          {"commentId":8786276,"authorDomain":"Richie-1271209"}

                                          Mr. Van Zandt,

                                          I have followed the case via reporter Kristi Pfaff (I'm sure I'm spelling this wrong) on radio.

                                          First off, I found your theory lucid and logical (you are former FBI?). I, too, was a bit skeptical on exactly how they ascertained where the bodies went in as opposed to where they showed up.

                                          I find the biggest credence to the SFK theory to be that the obvious fact that the proponents are former NYPD homicide. I have a great respect for big city homicide detectives, I've read many great books about the investigative processes (Miles Corwin on LAPD, another one that "The Wire" was based on, and many others). I'm a former cop but so what.

                                          Now, it appears that the greatest pieces of evidence are only known to these 2 ex-cops. According to Kristie, the 2 held back much more evidence than they've given. And I heard her say they not only are they certain of their theory, but they have named suspects and enough evidence for an indictment.

                                          So again, this remains a total mystery to me, but if I had to throw in my hat at gunpoint I'd have to say if these 2 guys were in fact, decorated NYPD homicide dicks retired, well, that goes a hell of a long way with me. If someone were REALLY inclined to pursue theories on this, and not privvy to the alleged additonal evidence not being publicly disclosed, they would research THESE 2 GUYS, and references and character testimony from their former colleagues, their supervisors, the district attorneys and judges they worked with on their previous cases. This is the type of stuff that matters in the real world.

                                          {"commentId":8786276,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"Richie-1271209"}
                                            Reply#21 - Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:37 AM EDT
                                            {"commentId":8793468,"authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}

                                            Richie,

                                            First of all, I respect your former work as a police officer and would hope that as experienced investigators the two former detectives would have held something back. This said and done, as I indicated in my piece, "I was once asked to review these cases by a reporter working with the former detectives and I reluctantly agreed to do so, this while expressing serious doubt in their theory of a secret serial killer gang that preyed on intoxicated college men. I did indicate that I would be open to any solid evidence they had to support their theory. They never contacted me again."

                                            I was asked by them to review their evidence, but they never followed through. That's their call, of course, but should they have had solid facts I would have been a good advocate for their case to both the FBI and to the media. Lastly, if they have "enough evidence for an indictment," how, in good conscience, can they, as former police officers, withhold such evidence from investigators in the various locations where these deaths have occurred? To do so is at least an ethical if not a criminal violation on their part.

                                            If they have proof they should stop withholding evidence of a crime from police and quickly provide their "proof" to a prosecutor so the suspected murderers can be charged and to prevent future such crimes from being committed. Not to do so leaves the blood of potential future victims on their own hands.

                                            Regards,

                                            CVZ

                                            {"commentId":8793468,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}
                                              #21.1 - Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:32 PM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              {"commentId":8801775,"authorDomain":"Richie-1271209"}

                                              Clint,

                                              Thanks for your reply. I have about 5 different shows downloaded via Kristi Pfaff (sic?). I have not listened to them recently, but it was my understanding that the "withheld" information was only withheld from Kristi and the public, ie, their appearances on "Good Morning America" etc. It was my understanding that they proffered this info to whatever entity reviewed, and subsequently turned down, their case for indictment.

                                              It appears you definitely have some inside info as your were contacted by them, albeit with no follow-up on their part. So as it stands I don't know if they've parted this info or not to the D.A.

                                              As a complete aside, I've been researching the OJ Simpson Case (more of a phenomena, it wasn't much of a case) for a possible paper or book I've entertained the idea of writing. The OJ case is only a small part.

                                              In researching I've thus far read books by Clark, Darden, Cochran (2), Dershowitz (2) and a candid inside account by Lawrence Schiller. A book by Furhman is to be read, and others.

                                              The point is, Vincent Bugliosi's book on the subject, "Outrage", is hands down one of the best books I've ever read, not just in regards to the law but should be considered a must-read for anyone concerned with common sense and logical reasoning. It offers some amazingly refreshing insights and mostly is just plain, simple no B.S. opinions that could easily transfer to other areas of life.

                                              I have done similar reading on the JFK case, and been convinced for a long time that government figures played a role in his demise. So it is with eagerness and trepidation that I look forward to reading Bugliosi's 1600 page tome in which he says that Oswald acted alone! Sorry to throw this out there-don't mean to change the topic.

                                              {"commentId":8801775,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"Richie-1271209"}
                                                Reply#22 - Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:18 PM EDT
                                                {"commentId":9800149,"authorDomain":"sunnfllower"}

                                                To Clint Van Zandt: I think you're an idiot. I, too, have spent hours reading these so called "accidental drownings" + I'm halfway thru Jan Jenkins' book "Footprints of Courage" regarding her son Chris's homicide. There is NO way anyone that spends hours reading these can possibly think they're not all homicides. Why would anyone head down to a river by themselves after leaving a bar in the winter?? Almost all of these drownings occur when it's cold. These lazy cops need FIRED & replaced by cops that actually give a sh*t. The Minneapolis cops are a disgrace & treated the Jenkins family abominably. The Jenkins did the cops' job & forced those moron cops to admit they made a mistake & changed Chris Jenkin's death to a homicide. You answer me Clint why anyone would take off for home & decide to walk out of their way to a river by themself? Especially in winter? It'd be one thing if there were keg parties by a river or something that would make sense about accidentally falling in. But none of these are the case. NONE of these are parties or bars right by a river. And what about the college guy that was found in 2 ft of water in a pond or something on the college property??? And it was still ruled accidental! It's all just an easy way out for lazy unfeeling cops to close the case. How do you drown yourself in 2 ft of water?? Wow, what a ludicrous world we live in when law enforcement could care less about young college guys being murdered. 70! And to say the killer is alcohol is assinine. I used to drink alot & go to bars & there was river 10 mins away. Never made me or any guys I knew to decide to venture down there for sh*ts & giggles. I'm furious too that if the bubble gum police force can't rule it an accidental drowning, they use a suicide, which is even more insane. They said Chris Jenkins flung himself off a bridge, idiots. If they were wrong about one, what makes those dumb *sses think they can't be wrong about more?? Someone should snatch one of the cop's sons & throw them in a river. Let's see how they'd act then. Let's see if they'd rule that accidental WITHOUT EVEN INVESTIGATING.

                                                {"commentId":9800149,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"sunnfllower"}
                                                  Reply#23 - Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:05 PM EDT
                                                  {"commentId":9800487,"authorDomain":"sunnfllower"}

                                                  The Minneapolis police would not even cooperate with the Jenkins. They had a company that would supply the use of free blood hounds but needed the seargent's okay. They REFUSED! One of their cops even took Chris Jenkin's girlfriend home in the early morning hours the night he was last seen. This cop was the one that instigated him getting KICKED OUT of the bar without car keys, wallet or phone & in the freezing cold with no coat! Wouldn't even let him tell his friends he was being kicked out. The married cop, Officer Casey, even flirted with Chris' girlfriend right in front of him at the bar all nite. Cop Casey takes her HOME when she works at the bar & had friends around & let her WEAR his officers shirt & cop paraphernalia for Halloween that nite. Sounds like he had Chris kicked out to get him out of the way so he could spend time with Ashley Rice. Why wasn't he fired for improper behaviour? Then Casey wouldn't give a statement or even talk to the Jenkins & he was one of the last people to see Chris alive. It was a travesty what those MN cops put that poor family through. Also the bar The LoneTree where Chris disappeared. The bouncer physically assaulted his mother & put a gag order to all the employees not to talk. They even lied & said they did not kick Chris out. It's their fault & Cop Casey's fault for the disappearance of this wonderful young man. I just wish it had been their son instead of Chris. Something would have been done then.

                                                  {"commentId":9800487,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"sunnfllower"}
                                                    Reply#24 - Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:20 PM EDT
                                                    {"commentId":9800763,"authorDomain":"sunnfllower"}

                                                    One last thing Clint Einstein, how can you drown & only have a little bit of water in your lungs as with Chris? His body was found with shoes on, on his BACK (prone position for drowning is face down), his ARMS FOLDED like in a casket & shirt tucked in? IMPOSSIBLE to have accidentally drowned like this & you sure wouldn't be swimming on Nov. 1 when it's freakin' COLD outside. Stupid cops. Wish the smiley face killers would grab some of those pathetic Minneapolis cops & toss them in the river. Here's a toast to wishful thinking & karma.

                                                    {"commentId":9800763,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"sunnfllower"}
                                                      Reply#25 - Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:31 PM EDT
                                                      {"commentId":9816340,"authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}

                                                      sunnfilower,

                                                      As indicated in my article, I, like you, believe at least one or more of the 70+ deaths related to this matter could be the result of homicide. My position is that ALL are not related and ALL are not the work of a secret gang of serial killers. If you choose to believe so, that is, of course, your business but I have not seen the evidence to support such a belief.

                                                      And, by the way, a human can drown in 2 inches of water...

                                                      Be safe,

                                                      CVZ

                                                      {"commentId":9816340,"threadId":"535072","contentId":"2583683","authorDomain":"clintvanzandt"}
                                                        Reply#26 - Thu Oct 1, 2009 1:21 PM EDT
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